TD: Well, I tell you what, I was working at the Alcoa aluminum plant at the time this happened, in '49. I wasn't making but a dollar an hour. Johnny Holmes asked me to come, said if I would move here he would pay me $125 a week. And good gracious alive, man, that was some money then, you know? So I decided to get away from there. So I quit the aluminum plant and came here. And been right here ever since.
ADA: So at first, you moved to Austin just to work at the Victory?
TD: Yeah we did that, oh, I don't know how long. After that I branched out to different clubs. You know Johnny mostly had the weekend and [someone else] started booking me and Tom Plumber. He had a club, he and I played, just started playing at different clubs just after Johnny Holmes. Three nights or two nights or whatever, you know? And most whenever they had a big band here in town. Johnny Holmes had the after hours, you know, at the Victory for it.
ADA: The Victory Grill was the main music room in town at the time?
TD: Yeah, early '50s, yessir. In 19 and 50, 51-52 the Victory was strong, I'm telling you, it was strong then.
ADA: So there was an Eastside music scene back then?
TD: Yes there was, but most of it was jazz here, you know? If I'm not mistaken. I don't want to over support myself. To my knowledge, I didn't see or didn't hear any blues guitar players in these clubs. 'Cause they was all jazz. And that's why lots of the great horn players wouldn't play with you. Because they didn't want the blues, they didn't want to play blues, they wanted jazz. I didn't know one note of jazz, not of blues either, I learned mine from ear. So I wouldn't know one note if it was big as a boxcar. But so far I've managed to make a living, you know, playing the blues so far.
ADA: Was the East Side music scene mostly local players
TD: Right, yeah. We had a few soldiers, you know, that was stationed at Fort Hood. And they were great musicians. I think some would even come from San Antonio. Like I remember one guy used to be here, I don't know exactly where he was from at that time. They called him Peanut, because he was short. And, oh man, he played great baritone and tenor. And H-T [Huston-Tillotson College] had lots of great jazz musicians. And they just, some of them just said they really couldn't play the blues, you know? I guess because they was on jazz and just like me, I couldn't play jazz, you know? So I guess that's how that were.
ADA: Was there a market for jazz and blues in other towns in Texas, so you could travel and play?
TD: Oh man, what are you talking about? Oh yes! Everywhere I went. Getting back to Johnny Holmes, I started to venture out a little bit from here, after a guy out of Odessa, Texas, heard me. I had lots of people from Rockdale living out there and they knew that I had a little band. They advised me to come to Odessa and play. So I started going to Odessa and Midland. Work was good out there during the oil boom. And they were paying good for cooks. So after the Victory Grill started kind of going down, I came through here and I talked to Johnny Holmes, I said, "Johnny, I say you a great cook. They pay dearly for cooks in Midland and Odessa." So he said, "When are you going back out there." And I gave him the date. He said, "well when you come through, come by and pick me up and I'll go out there with you. And see what it's like."
And I carried Johnny Holmes out there and he didn't even come back, he stayed. And he got a job cooking. And you know Johnny was in the business for the music, that was in him. So he worked as a chef cook there in Odessa for a while. Then he spotted a club and so he got this club. Then he stopped cooking and started booking bands--big bands like B.B., Ray Charles and all those great guys, you know, at the Cobra Club there in Midland. And that's what Johnny did. After that, well Johnny would call me and I would go out there and stay a year or two and play around with the group he had. Then I would come back to Austin and play here a year or two. And maybe go back. That's the way I did it up to about '58, then I came back here and I stopped traveling.
ADA: How did you come to play with Erbie Bowser?
TD: Ran into Bowser in Odessa. I think Erbie was working at a sulphur plant. And like I was saying a while back that I've seen so many great musicians pass away. We had a great little piano player. He was about 17, 16 or 17 years of age. And he was about the hottest thing that I had ever heard to be so young on a piano. And he got with a drummer that was playing with us, and they went over into Mexico and he got an overdose. Killed him. And so at this time we were looking for a piano player.
I don't know how Johnny found Erbie. But anyway, we got ready to have rehearsal and Johnny said, "Oh, I've got a piano player coming. He work at the sulphur plant. He'll be here later on this evening." So when Erbie walked in, you know, with his work clothes on and everything, I looked at him and I thought, "Man, he can't...he won't be able to make it." Erbie came in there and sat down on the stool and he went up and down that piano and I says, "Uh-oh, man he's too tough for us!" So that's how I met Erbie. And Erbie and I have been fiddling together since '54 or '55, somewhere along about there. That's how long we've been together.
ADA: Did you tour with this west Texas band?
TD: No I didn't. I left. I don't know if Erbie even remembers when I left from out there, but I was...things get a little rough there, I'd come back here and work here a while, and get a little rough here I'd head back out there. Look like I would just...I would have a job either place I went, you know? We were back here playing for Charlie Gilden, I think I was playing at Charlie's Playhouse. And I happened to look up and see Erbie. He had relatives and things lived here, and I didn't know it. So I looked up in Charlie's Playhouse, I don't know if it was day or night, 'Cause we played so much at Charlie's, matinees and at night. In walks Erbie. And...we got back together and we've been hacking it ever since.
ADA: What was the East Side club scene like in the 1950s? Were your audiences mostly black folks?
TD: Well, when I first came here, you know, it wasn't integrated and we had the black people. And somewhere in the '50s, if I'm not mistaken, it was Charlie's Playhouse, he was the first that integrated. And Charlie had a nice club. Not saying nicer than anybody else's, you know, but he had a nice huge club that could hold lots of people. And so then the whites started coming over to the east side and then Charlie's Playhouse, he started taking over then. He carried about the biggest crowd that was in the clubs here during that time, but before then it was all Victory Grill, you know?
ADA: Considering that Austin was still a segregated city at the time, how did it feel to be playing blues for integrated audiences at Charlie's Playhouse?
TD: Well, it was fine, because they...what they wanted was the blues, you know, and in fact we had a chance to do a lots of fraternity jobs out there. And that's...that's what they wanted. What we were doing, and it opened up lots of work to us. And then we had lots of white guys coming over wanting to learn to play the blues. And so...dog-gone-it, this guy's in California now and I can't call his name. He started coming over and learning. I think Hubbard, Blues Boy Hubbard, taught him about the guitar.
ADA: Bill Campbell?
TD: Bill Campbell, yeah, Bill Campbell. Yeah, he could lay down some blues for you. And so he started playing. And after the other white guys saw how Bill Campbell was doing, then they got interested. Then I guess Bill started learning them and before we knew anything, boom! Every time you would look up here was a band, there was a band there, band over there. Then after the white guys got their bands and things together, then they started getting the jobs in the fraternities at UT. And so that kind of knocked us back, you know? 'Cause they were doing some of the things that blacks had been doing, and that...you know, that really carried them over.
ADA: How did you feel about that, losing gigs?
TD: Well, it was fine with me because...if I wasn't there I was somewheres else, you know? Fact, like during that time I had a chance to travel with Johnny Ace and Willie Mae Thornton. And that was a great experience. I started with them out of Houston. We went into Atlanta, Georgia...was a long ride to make $15. We left there and came back in from Georgia to Alabama -- Anderston, Alabama, or some place. I can't remember now, but anyway we had a couple of dates in that town, then we got back into New Orleans, Louisiana. Johnny Ace and Willie Mae Thornton, they had a little disagreement and so they called Don Robey in Houston. And Don Robey had them to come in. They cancelled the dates that they had and [Robey] had them to come in so he could try to get things straightened out. So they left us in New Orleans.
We stayed there at a little hotel and that's where I learned how to eat gumbo. Money was low and you could go and get a 15 cent bowl of gumbo, you were ready for all day. And so we kind of got a little stranded there and I kind of got uneasy. I said, "You know I'm doing better than this back there in Austin." I had kind of already checked the map, you know, I'm thinking about hopping off. And I checked where they was going...they were only going into Florida. And so I checked the map and I seen how close we were going to be to Texas, so I was riding with Willie Mae Thornton in the station wagon -- she carried the instruments and the musicians in the trailer in a station wagon. So we came in -- I can't think of the name of the little town there -- but anyway, when we got there I told her to stop. She said, "what do you want to stop for?" I said, "I'm getting off here. I can't go any further." So I got off, they went on into Florida and in the next three weeks, that's when Johnny Ace killed himself. I guess with the Russian Roulette.
And, but see I came right on back here to Austin and got with my same group and went to work.
I had plenty of work. I could leave here and stay gone a year, two years, come back. People knew I was back in town, they'd start booking me, calling me.
ADA: What is it about the blues that keeps you playing?
TD: Well, I tell you what. Some people may be down on it, but I'm not. I tell you what, blues tells a story. You know, if you sit there and listen to it, it will...you'll get something out of it. And I'll say one thing, if you haven't had them, if you keep living, you will have them. Yeah, you'll have the blues.
ADA: How do you feel about the future of the blues, as a form of music that people play and listen to?
TD: Well, so far as I will say, for senior citizens, I think the blues are here to stay, but the young people they are on this rap and stuff. So I don't know about them. We have maybe a few young people that likes the blues, you know, but you take most of them, they going for this rap music. But blues are here to stay. There's going to be somebody always playing the blues. Blues are not as hot as this other music is now in popularity, but blues are still here. 'Cause if they wasn't, there wouldn't be as many who turnout to these blues festivals and these great artists that come through, you know? They carries a crowd with them, so I think they're still here.
ADA: It seems like for you, as someone who was out of the playing scene for so long, you're now playing to a whole new audience.
TD: Yeah, that's true. In fact in '87 when we did this blues festival up at the Victory Grill up there on 11th Street, well...that was all I intended to do, you know, was just that. And so Tary Owens called me. "Say T.D., I got a job for you and Erbie Bowser at the happy hour at the Continental Club." So I said, "No, that's it for me, I don't want any more. I put it down and that's the way I'm going to stay." But Erbie Bowser, he accepted it. So he was working up there by himself. And he kept calling me every week. "Come on up, come on, I'm making so and so, I'm doing this, I'm getting $50 for 2 hours playing and $30-40 in the kitty." I said, "What?" And I said, "well I'll come down and check you out one evening." So I fooled around another two or three weeks and then finally I decided to go down. I said, "I believe I'll come down and play one with you." And I went down and got $35 and $35 in the kitty for two hours. I say, "well my!, two hours, you know, $70, I didn't make that much money in 6 hours before I quit." And so I decided, "Well I might as well..." I was just going to do that you know every Friday and that was all.
So after people started hearing us and hearing more of us and everything, then they wanted us to play here, play for a wedding, play for a party, play for this and that, and man it just...the word got out. So one day Mel Davis walked up, the harmonica player, he walked up and said, "well if you fellows let me play with you, I don't want any money. I just want to play the blues." So Mel stayed with us about a month or something. He didn't take any money. So we gave him some money out of the kitty, then finally then Erbie asked for a salary for him. He got that. And another month or so later Lynn Nichols, bass player, he came up. And he same way. "Well I just want to play and learn with you all." And so he stayed there a while then Erbie got a salary for him. So well the next thing, we said now we need a drummer. And we talked to Steve about getting a drummer and he said, "well go ahead and do that," and we ended up with five pieces in there. That's what it's been for the last year and a half. So people come in and out and they hear about us and then they want us to come to different places for different occasions and we end up doing them.
ADA: How do you feel about the new attention you're getting, being out there as a working musician again?
TD: Well, it makes you feel good because...really we are getting more publicity and everything than I've ever gotten in my life, you know? And you have more people running up and hugging you and admiring you and thanking you and tipping heavy, you know? Back there then we didn't hardly know what a tip was. But it makes you want to do more, when you have people to even applaud for you. After a number is over, and they come up and thank you and say how they enjoyed the band and how great you were and all of that. It just makes you feel like going to work the next night, for me it does.
ADA: Well, they're doing it because you are a local blues legend.
TD: Well it makes me feel good. Maybe some time Tary Owens he will announce, blues legend or you know, something. It makes you feel good. I just, sometime I wished and then sometime you never know what's for you. You can only say what...I've had lots of opportunities to leave here try to hit the big time. I've had one aunt that was living in New York, she begged me to leave and go back with her,back in the early '50s. I said oh no I'm going to stay here. I wouldn't feel comfortable I had relatives in Los Angeles, they'd come down to visit and hear my group and they would ask me to leave. A couple of sisters in Houston, they wanted me to come down there. I don't know. I just stayed here. I just thought I was comfortable doing what I was doing here. I made a living at it. So I am thankful for that.
ADA: For the purposes of the this project, for the Blues Family Tree Project, all of this makes you a blues grandfather here in the local scene.
TD: I tell you what: I'm happy to be in that class. 'Cause you know I've seen so many fall by the wayside. A lot of us don't live to be old men.
That's why I admire Grey Ghost so, you know?
Many will miss his presence and, continue to hear his guitar and feel his spirit for years to come.