BFT: Mm-hmm. One of the things we're interested in with this project is trying to figure out how and why the entertainment district on the Eastside just kind of dried up. And it's very difficult to pinpoint it because socially, politically, culturally there were things that were going on that had to do with why things were changing during that time. But it, it... In the '50s hear lots of stories about people having a good time, you know, East 11th and 12th Streets, '40s and '50s.

SL: Yeah.

BFT: And to a certain extent, a multicultural group of people having a good time together there...

SL: Yeah.

BFT: ...And then, that went in decline. And now those places that used to be night spots -- it's not that they are now cut-and-shoot dives so much -- most of them are closed. Most of them are burned out, boarded up.

SL: Yeah, most of them are gone.

HW: That's true. Very true.

SL: Because I suppose there simply isn't the clientele to support them. Now I know that in the period in question, especially immediately following the second World War, the Hispanic population became relatively much more important than it had before, and I'm sure that that made the multiculturalism a little harder to deal with because you were dealing with one more culture. But yeah, it's interesting to watch. I find this sort of thing fascinating.

BFT: Yeah, I... We haven't made any... We haven't come up with any definitive answers yet, but...

HW: Right.

BFT: ...I think it's interesting stuff to consider.

HW: Well, and in a way it seems that to some extent perhaps, the revitalization of 6th Street moved the scene that was on the Eastside west of the interstate, and that might've contributed to it, to some extent. But then, that's been pretty recent, the revitalization of that area, for the most part. It started happening the '70s I guess, and...

SL: But 6th Street was formerly a mixed area. There were entertainment spots there: and there were black entertainment spots; there were white entertainment spots; there were brown entertainment spots. They were all mixed up in a funky-old mess, and so in a way what's happened is the quote "revitalization of 6th Street" has pushed the Eastside over to the Westside.

HW: Yeah, exactly.

BFT: Because, like the Green Spot and what was Brooks Hamburgers or Brooks Fine Foods or whatever it was, Scotty's Bar-B-Q... And this is just since I've been in town, which has only been 10 years. There was another one besides: La Plaza.

SL: Yeah.

BFT: You know they had great music on in the afternoon, that was the good thing about it, the Mexican bars, because they had live music in the afternoons, you know. And at the time there was a big concern about, you know, alcoholics and homeless people, derelicts; and we gotta clean up this area. And in the cleaning up of the area, for some reason all those businesses are suddenly nonexistent anymore.

SL: Well, some reason nothing! [Architect] David Graeber, if you're looking for the reason.

BFT: That's what I want. I want names, I want names! Why would you say that?

SL: Well, it's his old lady who's screaming about trying to get everybody to turn down now, isn't it? It... As it happens, I knew a fella named Rob Robertson who worked at Brooks, Berg, Graeber and White when they started buying up all that stuff, and in one way or another they did do all the buying. It was, it was Graeber's killing! And he's always been a real nice guy and all that kind of thing, but by gosh that was his score, and he made it. So, if you're looking for a reason, there you've got it.

BFT: That's, that's what we're looking for! You know, because I, I do alot of fishing, you know, and although this is documentary, real-life kind of thing, this -- what we are doing here -- is not 100% unbiased, I mean there are certain assumptions...

HW: Oh sure.

BFT: ...That are probably built in with our M.O., my motivation, at least, to do this project. But I'm a newcomer on the scene. I don't have business, artistic or family connections that go back for a long ways. But alot of our kind of things that we thought that we were gonna find out... People that know what's going on are telling us that, "Yeah, Austin's, Austin has some, has and has had some social, political problems that have not really been very kind to the east side of town, as a group of folks." And there seems to be interest now with some of the older people in East Austin, alot of the black folks to, to try to regroup and, and revitalize the east side of town, but they seem to be groping at answers for doing that too, because that seems to be moving along really slowly, because it's been in decline and decay for a long time.

SL: Well...

BFT: There's alot of frustrated people wondering, "How can we make this better?"

SL: It hadn't been very easy on the rather large population of less-affluent white folks that live over there either.

BFT: That's true.

SL: I keep hoping that maybe everybody will notice they've got about the same problems and start raising some Hell, but it doesn't seem to be happening.

BFT: It doesn't seem to be moving that way, not quickly enough at least. What did you get out of the Vulcan?

SL: Exhaustion! It was enough. Enforced party three nights a week and sometimes five. It never was very profitable anyhow. It was something to do. And actually, the joint kinda superannuated itself. There became other places to, to play; and the folks we'd been trying to help out either lost interest and went on and did something else, or had some kind of minimal success, and you know? So we kinda leased it out to the investment group that eventually became the Armadillo. And so it sort of had it's own little child there as it were.

BFT: What year was the Armadillo organized, founded, whatever?

HW: I think '70 or '71. Probably about '70.

SL: Yeah. The end of '70, I believe. It sort of coalesced around Eddie Wilson, who was at that time serving as the manager of Shiva's Headband and doing a fair amount of booking of one sort or another. He and Bobby Hedderman and other folks decided that, well, it was time for them to do something! And they scored this marvelous building, and there you have it. So it worked out sort of elegantly in a way because there was never any question of competition or distress. It just... Everything kind of got handed off, and that pleased us.

BFT: Did you have an official connection with the Armadillo?

SL: Oh no, other than, "Oh yeah, let him in!"

HW: There was another place worthy of mention around that period of time. I'm not sure of the exact date. It was called Bonnie's. It was over on the Eastside run by some little old lady named Bonnie, I suppose.

SL: Right, Durman talks about that doesn't he?

HW: Yeah, probably, and lots of folks who came to our joint went over there. I forget who the bands were, but I think they were probably mostly young white bands that... You know, it wasn't a very big place, but they packed it full. This might've been the night before Soap Creek opened or something. I can't exactly place it in time, but I think it was around 6th Street, just a little... It was near the corner of 6th Street and fairly far over on the Eastside.

BFT: Bonnie's?

HW: And it was called Bonnie's. I was only there a few times, so it probably was during the period of time I was in California, early '70s; and I don't remember how long it lasted.

BFT: Just let me throw some names at the two of you, get a quick sentence or two reaction, no comment or whatever. Angela Strehli? Her name came up earlier.

SL: Marvelous lady!

HW: Yeah, she's definitely been one of the big influences on the music scene from the time shortly after she got here. She was in several different bands, certainly different bands that worked with us. I think maybe the first band I remember seeing her perform with was one called Lord Greystoke and the Southern Fliers. I think Tary Owens was the bass player...

SL: Ah yes!

HW: ...I forget who the guitar player might've been. But she was probably not 20 at that time.

SL: And it was only a little bit after that that Angela and Louis and the Fabulous Rockets created themselves. That lasted a while.

BFT: Fabulous Rockets?

SL: Fabulous Rockets.

BFT: Marsha Ball? Did you know much about Marsha?

HW: Well, Marsha must've come into town after the Gas Company had closed. And she was instrumental, of course, in the Freda and the Firedogs band along with John Reed and some other folks. But I only saw them a couple of times because I guess I was in California.

SL: I enjoyed Marsha in her incarnation as Freda at the original Soap Creek, and really enjoyed it very much, recorded them some and so forth. I was... To tell the truth, I enjoyed that more than I enjoy her current incarnation, but that's not her opinion so that takes care of that.

HW: Well, it seems to me that the Firedog band was sort of like a real band where everybody had alot of input, and that might not be the way it is right now. But John Reed is always great, and certainly he was then. I think the first time I met John Reed he probably came to visit or play with Angela from Lubbock.

BFT: Angela came from Lubbock?

HW: Um-hmm.

BFT: I guess I'd heard that. W.C. Clark?

SL: I've always enjoyed working with him. I met him first when I was engineering for the funny kind of joint called Whole Sound, and he and then Stevie Vaughan were around quite alot trying to put their various individual and together works together, and I really enjoyed working with him because he was always an easy person to work with -- one of the persons who's so important in the studio at least from the engineer's point of view, that gets the musicians to work together. And imperturbable! The one record we issued of his from Whole Sound, two of the Elway tracks were recorded with my then 3-year-old daughter sitting on his lap. He was not the sort of person who was difficult to work with.

BFT: Did you have a sound company that did engineering that you farmed out to different labels or did you have a label?

SL: It was just a little recording studio which existed to help out the friends is what it amounted to. The tapes have largely been dispersed. If memory serves, only one vinyl and that 45 was ever cut out of there, but alot of good work was done.

BFT: Who else did you record? Mostly demo tape?

SL: Well, mostly, mostly that sort of thing. Then we did mobile recording for a while at clubs. And, gosh I can't remember who all, but it was mostly the love of people, mostly the Vaughan connections, W.C. and his connections, Paul Ray to a certain extent...

HW: The Cobras.

SL: ...The Cobras...

HW: The Cobras song...

SL: ...Denny Freeman...

HW: We even recorded Alvin Crow.

SL: Yes indeed we did; I'd forgotten that. And for the time it was pretty good work. It was certainly entertaining.